Bee Health, Research, and Real-World Beekeeping with Dr. Jeff Pettis (367)

367 - Bee Health, Research, and Real-World Beekeeping with Dr. Jeff Pettis

Kim Wood: Hi, Becky and Jeff. This is Kim Wood. I don’t know when you’re going to be playing this, but right now we are sending you greetings from snowy Muskegon, Michigan, where we received 24 inches of snow in the last 24 hours. I’m a beekeeper, a pollinator educator, and a big fan of your show. Welcome to BeekeepingToday.

[music]

Jeff Ott: Welcome to Beekeeping Today Podcast, presented by Betterbee, your source for beekeeping news, information, and entertainment. I’m Jeff Ott.

Becky Masterman: I’m Becky Masterman.

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Jeff: Hey. A quick shout-out to Betterbee and all of our sponsors, whose support allows us to bring you this podcast each week without resorting to a fee-based subscription. We don’t want that, and we know you don’t either. Be sure to check out all of our content on the website. There, you can read up on all of our guests, read our blog on various aspects and observations about beekeeping, search for, download, and listen to over 300 past episodes, read episode transcripts, leave comments and feedback on each episode, and check on podcast specials from our sponsors.

You can find it all at www.beekeepingtoday.com. Hey, thank you, Kim, from Muskegon, Michigan, for that wonderful opening. 24 inches, Becky. I bet you can relate to that.

Becky: I can. I can relate to it, although it’s not that dramatic here yet in Minnesota, but go Michigan.

Jeff: [laughs] That was a great opening, and both of you can keep your snow. I’m happy about it. No. Actually, we were talking before we started recording. It feels like 40 days and 40 nights of rain here. By the time this episode is released, maybe we’ll have had snow. I am really torn with this because, the rain or snow, which is better? If we had all of this rain as snow, oh, my gosh, they wouldn’t know how to handle it here in the Pacific Northwest. The world would stop.

Becky: Shut down.

Jeff: Yes. Shut down.

Becky: Yes. We do see those news stories, and we are very proud of how we handle our snow and ice in Minnesota. I’ve never actually lived anywhere without four very distinct, gorgeous seasons, and I think I would miss it terribly. The snow is just one of those. It’s a great exercise to get it moved out of the sidewalk. It’s nice for the bees, too, because it’s nice to have a break where you really are limited as far as what you can do. It gives you a forced break.

Jeff: A forced mental break?

Becky: Physical break from getting into those bees.

Jeff: [chuckles] It always makes that first sting of the spring all the more special.

Becky: Oh, I recommend getting stung year-round. You pick them up out of the snow and take a quick sting. They’re usually willing participants at that point.

Jeff: You know how to have fun in the wintertime, Becky.

Becky: Exactly. I can tell you how to tell if your colony’s alive just by looking at patterns in the snow. It’s a thing.

Jeff: Speaking of bees in the snow, what do you look for?

Becky: After a fresh snow, if you go out to the apiary, sometimes 30-plus more feet away, I think we talked about this maybe with Jim, but you start to see dead bees in the snow. We know that bees leave the nest for cleansing flights, but we also know they leave the nest when they die. We maybe don't know the origins of each bee’s story, but those dead bees in the snow are just such a welcome sign. No. It’s not piles and piles and piles of bees, because that’s a whole nother sign you don’t want to see. You can also see little specks of yellow in the snow if you’re in cleansing flight time.

I’m not seeing them right now, but you’ll see them after warmer days, which is 32 degrees, because those bees will get out, fly, and come back in, and do a cleansing flight. Those little yellow specks on the colony and in the snow, that's a good sign. It’s a good sign that they’re alive.

Jeff: You want to keep things moving through the system. You don’t want it blocked up for months on end. That becomes problematic for bees and people. [laughs]

Becky: It does. They can hold it for quite a while, so don’t panic yet. We’re not in any danger.

Jeff: It’s always a treat in the spring to get out around the hives when they’ve been inside for a couple of months.

Becky: Oh, that’s a messy, messy inspection.

Jeff: That is. That is. For our HiveIQ Question of the Week, we have a question from Rich Colvin about education. Let’s listen to it now, and then we’ll come right back.

Rich Colvin: Hello, Jeff and Becky. My name is Rich Colvin, and I’m a hobbyist beekeeper in central Ohio. I am also one of the trainers at the bee club’s apiary located near me. My question is about master beekeeping certification. I believe going through the training would be greatly useful for my own skills and for making me a better trainer. Some programs, such as the University of Florida, seem better for other climates, and some seem targeted at commercial beekeepers. The question I have for you two is, which program do you recommend and why?

Jeff: Becky, what do you recommend for beekeepers who are looking to continue their education? For most hobbyist backyard beekeepers, they’re looking at the master beekeeper program.

Becky: It’s a great opportunity to do a deeper dive into beekeeping and understand more. I think education is definitely the way to go. If it’s a master beekeeper course, I think start with the most local course, maybe to your region, because some of that information is going to come through in the instruction. I think that makes sense. With that said, there are some great programs out there, and you’re a graduate of one of them, correct?

Jeff: Yes. I took the Montana Master Beekeeper Program, and the Washington State Beekeepers Association also has a master beekeeper program. I recommend, along with you, to take one that’s regionally close or similar to your region. I enjoyed it. It may not have been everything I wanted in terms of what I wanted to learn, but for me, it was continuing education, which sounds like what Rich is looking to do to be able to turn that around and teach those in their club apiary, and to further bolster his understanding of bees.

In terms of which one he should take, I would find one that speaks to your region and the type of beekeeping you want to do, and just enjoy it. Just enjoy it.

Becky: I think we should mention our friend Dr. David Peck from Betterbee, who is working with the Eastern Apicultural Master Beekeeping Program and putting his heart and soul into that program.

Jeff: I’m not casting shade on EAS and their master program, because that is the gold standard of master beekeeper programs. I think they have a wonderful program, but I would recommend, based on what I’ve seen and the folks I’ve talked to, is to get a local or regional master certificate. Get a solid understanding of beekeeping, get more years in the bee yard, and see as much as you can before you go to EAS.

Becky: Whoa. [laughs]

Jeff: EAS is hard by all accounts, and in fact, very few people pass it the first year. I think our friend, Anne Frey, from Betterbee, was one of those graduates to-- and she'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she got it on the first try. Rich, thank you for your question. I will be sending you a HiveIQ tool that is beautiful. It’s shiny. It’s my go-to hive tool in the bee yard. It has the HiveIQ logo, and on the other side, it also has the Beekeeping Today logo. It’ll be in the mail hopefully soon. Becky, today we want to welcome back Dr. Pettis.

He’s one of the most influential researchers in honeybee health for a long time. Over his career, he’s authored, I looked this up earlier today, over 200 scientific publications. He continues to work on honeybee health or understanding honeybee health around the world. We’ll be talking to Jeff right after this message from our sponsor.

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Jeff: Hey, everybody, welcome back. Joining us today at this great big virtual Beekeeping Today Podcast table is Dr. Jeff Pettis. Jeff, welcome back. I’m pretty sure this is your fifth time on the podcast. Thank you.

Dr. Jeff Pettis: Hey, good to be with you, Jeff. I actually lose count, but it’s always good to be with you.

Becky: Did you get the green jacket or whatever it is the podcast gives out for five-time guests?

[laughter]

Jeff: Green jacket. Very good, Jeff. Before we get into why we invited you back today, would you give our listeners, especially those who may be new to you or missed our last visit with you back in August of 2024, a quick reminder of your background with honeybees?

Dr. Pettis: Sure. I started out a long time ago. [laughter] I'm an entomologist. I studied entomology insects in college, and I actually took a honeybee course at University of Georgia in 1983, and I fell in love with bees. The next semester, I was the teaching assistant for my major professor in bees, and I've done nothing but honeybees since then. I went on and got a PhD, and then I worked for over 20 years as a research scientist with USDA Agricultural Research Service in Beltsville, Maryland.

I've also worked as a volunteer for Apimondia, and I just actually stepped down as Apimondia president after six years working with that organization. I've been around bees virtually, not all my adult life, but most of it. I still keep about 100 bee colonies here on the eastern shore of Maryland.

Jeff: The last time you were on the show, you were just about ready to step down from Apimondia, if I recall right. How do you feel about the transition, other than-- I'm sure you were very busy at the time, I think we caught you between flights. How are you feeling about that transition? What do you think about that experience, looking back on it?

Dr. Pettis: It was a really good experience. When I was at USDA, it was the bee research lab, and all we did was bee health. That's all I've done is different things about diseases in parasites, et cetera, et cetera. It was a logical progression for me to get involved in Apimondia on the international scale. I was the Bee Health Commission president. I worked on bee health issues with Apimondia. I did that as a volunteer for six years, and then the presidency came open, and they were encouraging me to apply. I did, I became president for six years.

I was actually supposed to serve two more years, and I decided 12 years of volunteer effort and a few years before that, I just decided I'd given enough, but the experience was great. Got to meet people from all over the globe, got to be involved with research, actually all over the globe.

Dr. Pettis: It's been a wonderful experience, but I can tell you I'm much relieved it's over. [laughter] I say that because my inbox-- when we just met in Copenhagen in September of '25, we met in Copenhagen, 8,000 people, 124 countries, and I was master of ceremony. That's a lot of responsibility. My inbox was at 1300, in my inbox, and about two weeks after I stepped down, I had it down to about 150. I'm much relieved. It was a great experience, but it was time to move on and do other things.

Becky: What you're telling us is that you have plenty of time for listener questions if we could just have your e-mail. [laughter]

Dr. Pettis: Becky, my e-mail and my phone number are out there. You don't know how many beekeepers around the country and other places have my e-mail. I get WhatsApp things all the time from Africa, from a bunch of people that I've met. I'm still doing a lot of communication, but yes, I do have time for questions. Yes, I do.

[laughter]

Becky: We might have just put you at a different level. Everybody, be very careful. Last resort, go to Jeff.

Dr. Pettis: I can tell you now something that happened after Apimondia, because of the e-mail thing, and e-mail people expect a response. "Why didn't you respond to my e-mail?" My out-of-office says, "I'm currently on sabbatical until further notice," and then I say something else, and then the closing line is, "I have other living to do." [laughter] My only living still involves bees. I'm still active in bees, but I basically wanted to tell people, "Please, I'm stepping back a bit." I think that out of office, it's still on. It's been on for three months now. I'm on sabbatical.

Jeff: You have your own consulting practice on honeybees, and you were consulting with Terra Vera. Is that what's keeping you busy these days?

Dr. Pettis: That's part of it. I am working closely as an advisor to Terra Vera. It's an organic fog that we're applying to hives, and it's looking very promising. I tested in the queen-rearing context in Georgia, and it seems safe in queen rearing. We've done some colony-level trials. It can reduce rural populations. It's not going to eliminate them. I don't know how soon we're going to go for EPA registration, but we're trying to find other applications like comb sterilization because it acts like a bleach. Yes, I'm still consulting with them, but we all have our little pet projects.

My pet project is a hive that I've tested in Florida, which is a cross between a log rustic hive and a top bar hive. You don't have to come in from the end and destroy all the combs. I've tested in Florida, it worked. I'm going to now apply for funds to test it in Africa. That's my little pet project, is testing this hive. I have no financial interest. I just want people to try it and see if it works, and give it away.

Becky: What are the goals to do this management? Is it a smaller brood nest, easier varroa?

Dr. Pettis: In Africa, almost anywhere I've been in Africa, they don't treat for varroa because of the type of bee they have. It's mostly to help with the harvesting. I tested it in Florida because they have some Africanized bees, and they took readily to it. It might work in Southeast Asia. It's for anywhere where they use fairly rustic hives. I think it's better designed, it's lighter, it uses less material, and things like that. It's really a transition hive. If people want to use a frame hive, a blank strap, or something, they can, but I've seen these log hives and skep hives be very successful in Africa.

This is like that, but it's even lighter and easier-to-use kind of thing. If it's successful, I'll come back, Jeff and Becky, and in a year and a half from now, about a year.

[laughter]

Becky: Okay, but is it a US manufacturer?

Dr. Pettis: No, I'm going to manufacture it. No one's manufacturing it yet.

Becky: Nobody's making it. Okay.

Dr. Pettis: It's up here. [crosstalk]

Becky: Okay. It's in your head.

Dr. Pettis: I built some, and in Florida, they worked. I've got interest in Africa, hopefully Kenya, Uganda, and Zimbabwe. I've got people connected already that will produce them for me on a small scale. Then we're going to test it and see if it works. If beekeepers like it, it's go for it.

Becky: This isn't one of those research ways to go on a really nice vacation [laughter] and visit another part of the world. Is it?

Dr. Pettis: No. In fact, I'd love for a student to pick this up and have it as their master's or PhD project. All I want to do is have them test it side by side with what they currently use, and if they like it and it is, in fact, cheaper, maybe it'll take off. If you know log hives, or I've seen them in Mexico too, you have to come in from one end of the other or plate the hives, and you just cut everything out and rip it up. I'll tell you the secret, there's only one.

[laughter]

Becky: You don't have to. I want you to come back. [laughter]

Dr. Pettis: I'm not going to patent it or anything else. The side of it lets down, it's made of a wooden frame and a cloth wrapping. The side lets down so you can access all the combs from the side. It's pretty simple. I saw box hives, the old hives in Italy, and they were just these rectangular hives, and they worked, but again, they were accessing them from the end and ripping everything apart. This is a way to save the brood nest and harvest the honey. That's my idea.

Jeff: The comb would be built on basically a top-bar-type stick?

Dr. Pettis: I have two versions, and that's part of why I need to test it. One is a bunch of top bars, and other is actually a solid bar that I put little guides of wax on. Hopefully they'll build in line and not so much bar comb, but that's what the testing's about. Again, it has a lot of different aspects, and I could see it being adapted in ways, but it's just one of these things that's been bugging me. I've been at it for about six years, trying to get time to test this. I'm hoping to test it in the coming year in Africa.

Jeff: That also helped you relax between your mini calls and everything over the last several years, I'm sure.

Dr. Pettis: Yes. See my bees here. I enjoy just keeping bees. That's a relaxation thing. When the e-mails got too much, I'd go for a drive and work my bees. Now, without all the obligations of Apimondia, which were good, I have more free time and more relaxing time.

Jeff: Last time you were on, you talked about your ongoing work with Tropilaelaps and queen health. We touched on the queen health and talking about the new treatment possibility, but how are those projects progressing? Tropilaelaps keeps circling to the top of the pile of issues. This fall's finding of a colony of bees on a ship, what, five miles offshore. Raised it again. How's that going? How's that project working out?

Dr. Pettis: I think I'm finished with the project in Korea. I finished the project in Korea. It was funded by a European Union grant that I'm on. I'm still on the grant, but I don't think we'll do any more fieldwork. A couple things came out of that. One is I tested a couple of different controls, and this new amitraz product called Amiflex, it's a gel. It now works. It worked in my trial, whereas the amitraz strips, the Apivar didn't work when I tested in Thailand. That was a finding. Amiflex worked. Formic acid worked very well as Formic Pro. We've known that formic acid works, but I tested it again.

What else? Anyway. I did a control study and got some more data on control measures that we can use. I also did a little bit with how to sample for the mite, and so I hope to be publishing that fairly soon. The last part of the grant is, we hope to do a training in Europe to train bee inspectors and veterinarians how to recognize Tropilaelaps and stuff like that. That's probably the last obligation on Tropilaelaps. I think I could get pulled into something. There's a lot of interest. Geoff Williams at Auburn is doing a lot. There's a few other people around the country that are doing some work.

I might get pulled into more research, but to be honest, if I can get this published and done, I have a fair bit of experience with Tropilaelaps, but I hope I don't get pressed into action in the US. Let's put it that way. [chuckles]

Becky: That's fair. Do you think, from what you found as far as sampling for Tropi, that the National Honey Bee Survey methods for sampling for Tropi might be updated soon?

Dr. Pettis: Yes, because Dennis vanEngelsdorp and myself developed that bump method. The bump method, it's really hard on the frames you use. Maggie Gill in the UK says that-- claim, and she got a publication out, that 300 bees in a sugar shake will work, but you need to be very careful with the sugar, that you get it out. She says, "Take it back to the lab." I've been able to do it and just wash the sugar off in the field and on a cloth and be able to see the mites, but they are very small, and if you're unaided eye, it might be tricky.

We have some new sampling methods. There's another one that uses wax. You put wax on the sealed brood comb and rip it off, and then bump the comb or blow over the comb, and you can see the mites really quickly. There's a couple of different new sampling techniques. Yes, we need to improve that sampling method that was in the national survey for sure.

Becky: It's really hard to do that bump test in front of the owners of the colonies. I will just tell you that. I apologize.

[laughter]

Jeff: For our listeners who may not know what the bump test is, can you describe the survey?

Dr. Pettis: Sure. I'll describe the bump test. Hey, part of this is little stories. APHIS funded this. Animal Plant Health Inspection Service funded this work. We went to Thailand with all kinds of ideas. We were going to use formic acid on the top or something and put a sticky board, and the mites were all going to fall down because it'll kill them, right? It was killing mites, as was amitraz, as was all the other things. They don't fall through the bees. They're so light in weight that as they die, they tend to get stuck in the bees. Sticky board doesn't work.

Also sticky board, even if you have a fast-acting thing, it's cumbersome. We played around with five or six different ways to sample. We were running out of time, and we knew that this bump method could work, so we did enough testing to show that it does work. Bump method, you pull out a frame of sealed brood or sealed and unsealed brood, and over a white pan or a pan that you can collect, you quickly rap hard on one side of the comb, bam, bam, you flip the comb over, bam, bam. The mites literally just fall off the comb into the pan.

Then you have to wash the pan into a collection device, some kind of sieve or something. Because you have to hit the comb so hard, you're damaging the pupae and stuff in there. Now that I've explained that, Becky, you've done it. I have what I call bump light, and it's much easier. [laughter] This is part of the publication I need to get out. You take sealed brood, you take a sharp X-Acto-- Not X-Acto knife, a utility blade, and you gently cut open about 300 cells. Just cut the cappings carefully. Try not to decapitate the bees, but just the pupae.

You can do this, flip it back, bump once or twice real lightly, and the pupae will fall out. You look on the pan, you can see the mites. I went to Korea, and I was going to start picking brood, and then the beekeepers looked at me like I was crazy. He said, "You just need to cut these cappings and bump it." I'm like, "Wow." The beekeeper showed me how to sample for Tropilaelaps. It's very quick. You take and go sideways to the brood comb, uncap about 300 cells, bump it, and you've got your-- between that and this wax method is very similar to that.

You uncap about 300 cells, and it's also very rapid. Very soon, we need to adopt something in US National Survey. It incorporates either the wax, which is very uniform, or the slicing method, I think.

Becky: That's a great update. There are 19 beekeepers in every state that know what I'm talking about.

Dr. Pettis: [crosstalk] We heard that complaint. They're like, "You can't do that bump test." [laughter]. I said, "Yes, but it's only one frame." Anyway. I know. We lived with that complaint for a long time.

Becky: I will tell you, though, the bump test also reveals you've got hive beetles coming out. You get to see some deformed wing virus. You can actually see other things when you do that, but it's not any fun.

Jeff: With the Tropilaelaps, then, it's more of just to test for them. It's not to determine the level of infestation. It's just, they're here now, we found them.

Dr. Pettis: You're sharp, Jeff. In fact, I should have qualified that. I call it presence absence, in other words. That's why the 250 or 300, 350 cells, it doesn't matter, it's just a presence absence. The way we quantify is we uncap 100 or 200 cells and say, "How many cells are infested?" That's for research. That takes a lot of time. Some people are publishing on 100 cells. I like to do 200 cells. I've had many colonies. When I uncapped 200 cells, I find one infested cell. If you're only uncapping 100, you're going to miss that sometimes.

If you uncap 300 cells and bump it, or if you use the wax and uncap about 300 cells, you're going to find it even at low level. You're right, Jeff, it's only plus-minus. It's only, is it there or not there?

Jeff: Let's take this opportunity to take a quick break, and we'll be right back after this word from our sponsors.

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Becky: Welcome back, everybody. Jeff, I have so many questions because you have an entire career based on bee health and bee research, and you have 100 colonies. I literally want to know everything you do to keep them healthy. How you're feeding them, how you're wintering them, what you're doing for varroa. Whatever you're willing to share, you just have the floor.

Dr. Pettis: Oh, Becky. Becky.

[laughter]

Jeff: For the next 15 minutes. Everything.

Dr. Pettis: Again, that's one of the reasons I've never taken a master beekeeper course, because I'm a scientist, got a PhD, what if I failed the master beekeeper course? [laughter]

Dr. Pettis: I do a couple of things. One is I only use oxalic and formic acid. In the summer, generally, I can get it in June or July. I watch the temperatures, obviously, and I use oxalic as a cleanup in the fall and sometimes other-- I've tried the VarroxSan. I wasn't too thrilled with, but anyway, still, I'm only using oxalic and formic. I've tried to get a few different stocks from around the country that I thought had some resistance. I can keep my levels low, but I still have to treat. I'm treating with those two organic acids.

I'm not in the best honey-producing area, although we do produce some honey, and that's what we sell at our local two farmers' markets. We sell directly. That's a good thing. I use it more for relaxation than anything else. I get out, I can work bees and forget about everything else. I have about eight or nine locations around the Salisbury area.

Becky: Do you have a spreadsheet, and are you collecting mite data, or are you just going with your gut and going, "It's time. They're about to brood up. I'm going to have to go ahead and intervene."

Dr. Pettis: Now, what's the guy in Boone, North Carolina? HiveTracks? I'll tell you the story.

Jeff: James Wilkes.

Dr. Pettis: James, if you're listening, and he knows. I don't keep a spreadsheet, but I do tests. I do... I often use sugar, and I think I save a few bees. I know it's not as accurate as alcohol, but I'll use alcohol or sugar shake to time some of those treatments because I don't want to let mites get out of hand, so I do test. I just keep rough things in my-- I have a hard notebook that I carry with me. The other way I keep track of what my colleagues are doing is a very old-fashioned way, and it's called bricks on top of [crosstalk]

[laughter]

Becky: Yay for the bricks.

Jeff: I was waiting for that.

Dr. Pettis: Wait a minute. I've got 10 to 15 hives in an apiary, all in there. I've got two turned on their side, those are the ones I need to look at. I don't need-- because I've never looked at the hives as individuals. I tend to try to manage them all the same, and I know that this hive is really productive or whatever, but still, unless I'm-- and I do do some grafting occasionally, I haven't done much recently, but I do keep track of if I have a good one that I want to graft from. No, I just have two bricks on top of the hive, and I can tell all kinds of things.

This one's low on food, this one has a queen issue, whatever, so that I use-- [laughs] Wilkes laughs at me, and some people even use bricks as a signal, like, "Yes, it works for me."

[laughter]

Becky: It is one of the best ways to keep track, jumps right out at you, or even when you're doing an inspection, right? You just move the brick differently so that you know you got to go back and do something.

Dr. Pettis: It is very old school, but the other thing, and I've seen this been really effective, you turn the hive cover over, and there's a little plastic sleeve, and you have this hive card. I have to take time and write down, "Queen was inspected on this day," and all I need to know is that I have a laying queen and everything looks normal. If it doesn't, then I use the bricks to tell me what I need to do to go back to that hive. I know it's old school. I will say I'm not a total Luddite, because I think what I would like I'd love to have a couple of scale hives out there in my different locations that tell me what's going on flow-wise.

That would be a big help. I'm pretty old school.

Becky: Do you mark your queens?

Dr. Pettis: Sometimes. Not always. Not always.

Jeff: I can never make the brick method work for me. How many different positions of a brick do you have? I know we're going down the weeds in bricks, but this is good information.

Dr. Pettis: The way I learned it, and I learned it from some of the best, I'm telling you. [laughter] No. If the bricks are in line with the frames, it means everything's good. One brick or two bricks, if they're in line with the frames. I usually turn it 180 degrees, so it's crossways to the frames, if I think I need to do something, whatever it is. If there's a queen issue, I turn the brick on its side, and then if it's dead, I turn it straight up. I stand it up. Then, my feeding is I just put the bricks towards the back of the hive. I made up my own system.

I only have about six things that I say about the hive, like food, it needs to be fed, queen right, and everything's good is in line. It's a pretty simple system.

Jeff: I never considered turning the brick 90 degrees to the frame, front, back. It'd be 90 degrees means something's up. I need to address it.

Dr. Pettis: Yes. [laughter] Oh, and guess what? Guess what? The brick.

Becky: There's more.

Dr. Pettis: Couples, keep my lips from blowing off, right? Come on.

Becky: There it is.

[laughter]

Jeff: That's funny. That's so much fun.

Becky: Even where I use ratchet straps, though, I do have bricks because they just can tell you so much.

Dr. Pettis: It's just a way, I don't like to spend a lot of time, like spreadsheets and stuff. It's a way, when I get to the yard, I can get the information I need. Then in my logbook in the truck, I write, "All the colonies were fed," or, "All the colonies were treated on this day," because I can't record my treatment things. That's in the logbook. I do keep a logbook.

Jeff: I wanted to ask you on the oxalic acid, are you using Dribble or are you using OAV?

Dr. Pettis: Mostly it's Dribble right now. I've never vaporized because I just, for my own health. I know the vapor is very quick and people seem to love it, but I've never vaporized it.

Becky: Feeding in preparation for winter. Are you just a straight two-to-one syrup guy, or do you do anything fancy? Do any emergency feeding just in case?

Dr. Pettis: The first thing is I hope that I have a good fall flow, which every year is different, and every location is different. I don't always get a good flow because I usually extract in late May, and maybe one in the summer. I almost never extract in the fall. Although sometimes, if something happens, I can extract a little bit of honey. The first thing I do is I start going around, and I just lift. Of course, I'm in my hives. I can look at the amount of stored honey, and I start marking them with my bricks. These are two to one, these need to be fed, and I need to fed them as early as possible.

I use internal feeders, or I have two-gallon, top bucket-type feeders. I start feeding, but that's where Apimondia got in the way. Apimondia is always in September, and I'm feeding it in late August and September, trying to fatten them up. I do some feeding in the fall when I have to. I just usually by weight and by looking at them, seeing how much they have, I run almost exclusively singles.

Becky: Oh, that's fun.

Dr. Pettis: Then in the spring, if they come through the winter really well, I have another deep box because I can't keep ahead of swarming or making nucs, put a second box on them, and make them. Then later, I'll split it off as another hive or something. I do sell nucs. I've started selling nucs, really, really profitable. Just easy money, they're building up with them, so make a nuc. I feed some in the fall. I lift and try to get them all heavy enough. Then they're singles with insulation on top, and that's it. No screen bottom boards.

I like screen bottom, but I don't use them. I use insulation on the top. Then I've been buying, promoting another product, HiveAlive fondant, as an emergency food.

Becky: Are you putting the HiveAlive in a spacer, a shim?

Dr. Pettis: Shim.

Becky: You put that there, and then just the inner cover, and then-

Dr. Pettis: Foam.

Becky: -the foam, like a polystyrene foam insulation?

Dr. Pettis: Then the lid.

Becky: Then the lid.

Dr. Pettis: Two bricks.

[laughter]

Becky: Two bricks because it's winter. [laughs] Then it's a single, so you just have the bottom entrance, and they're good to go.

Dr. Pettis: Again, sometimes I'll run a few doubles through the summer, but usually everything's single. It's just easy.

Becky: Single with a frame feeder in there?

Dr. Pettis: In the fall, I'm trying to reduce them down a little bit. If I can, I can feed them and some of my big ones. I've harvested frames of honey, and I can pull that frame feeder out and put it back in. It all depends on how strong the colonies are going into winter, whether they're 10 frames or 8 frames, whether I have 10 or 8 frames. If they're small and I haven't gotten them full enough, I'll leave that feeder in there, hoping maybe I get a little time to feed them some liquid. I haven't had much success feeding liquid late because it's too much moisture.

Becky: Are you running deep supers or medium supers?

Dr. Pettis: One deep.

Becky: Deep supers. It's just really efficient. Do you have a really regimented comb rotation schedule, or is it just when you think it looks like it's time?

Dr. Pettis: More of the latter.

[laughter]

Becky: More of the latter.

Dr. Pettis: I should-- Actually, oh, you're recording me.

[laughter]

Becky: This is a safe space.

Dr. Pettis: Do you know part of my comb rotation scheme?

Becky: You're selling nucs.

Dr. Pettis: Exactly. [laughter] I don't know, I don't want to sell bad combs that are twisted, but I'm selling them, and maybe they're three years old, maybe they're eight years old, and those are going out, and I'm putting new foundation in and getting it drawn out. Usually, in a five-frame nuc, they'll probably get two new frames that have fairly recently been drawn out, and the other three are older. Some might be going out every year.

Becky: Oh, this is so much fun. We have to rename this episode. This is Hive Talk, Hive Secrets.

[laughter]

Jeff: It is fun. Oh, it's not often that we get to talk with someone with your experience and research background on how you are actually keeping bees. It gives us a peek on the inside of what really happens. There's the research, Jeff, and then there's the back-in-the-muck Jeff. I'm not talking about me [laughter] because I'm always in the muck. That's always just where I'm at. It seems like a very fast podcast, but I do want to ask you because of your history and background at the USDA-ARS. In our intro talking before you came on, you were the primary author and the co-author of over 200 papers.

You're cited everywhere. I didn't get the count on that. You're very prolific and very established, the USDA-ARS. In the last 12 months, USDA-ARS in Beltsville has been in the news. In the bee industry, it's been very disruptive, or at least the news sounds disruptive. Can you give us your quick perspective on changes and how that might affect bee research?

Dr. Pettis: It's not that they're shutting down the honeybee lab in Beltsville. They want to shut down the whole facility. They do every kind of research in ag that you can imagine. They cover the gamut of different types of agricultural-related research. The Beltsville lab, I was a research scientist there. I was also a research leader for a number of years. We provided a diagnostic service free to the beekeepers. That's one thing. If it were to disappear, that would be a detriment. Mostly, it's just that you've got career scientists there that are working hard trying to solve some of these problems for the bee industry.

If they have to get relocated or have to get consolidated with something else, we may lose some of them. They may retire or just decide not to move. My feeling is it must be very disruptive right now, the unknown, and morale must be down quite a bit. Even the mention of it has probably impacted some of the stuff that they're trying to do. I know many of them very personally, and I know they're trying, but it's just a not a good thing when the industry is struggling and having 62% to 70% winter loss or colony lost last year. There's never been a time where we needed research more, I guess.

Jeff: Dr. Jeff Pettis, it's been wonderful having you back on the show. Look forward to having you back again.

Dr. Pettis: I'll be back when I have success in Africa.

Jeff: We really do want to hear about that and how those hives are received.

Dr. Pettis: If I adopt a new system over the brick system, I'll let you know that.

[laughter]

Jeff: Please do.

Becky: Or a third brick if you get to three bricks.

Dr. Pettis: I need more nuance.

Jeff: I think of what we need is sit down with a graphic artist, and you can just look at a semaphore chart of the position of the bricks on a hive top, what they mean. That's what we need.

Dr. Pettis: I can still remember James Wilkes.

Jeff: That's what I need.

Dr. Pettis: He was giving a presentation, and he goes, "And some people are still using bricks to keep going." I saw him right after. I'm like, "I'm one of them, James."

[laughter]

Becky: Sometimes the fun is that you don't quite remember what the brick is off, and then you dig in, and you discover it all over again. [laughs]

Dr. Pettis: Anyway, it's all fun. Yes. Good. It's been really good to be with you, Becky. Got to be back on.

[music]

Becky: Thanks so much, Jeff. We really appreciate it.

Jeff: Thank you, Jeff. It's fun to talk to a researcher who's also a beekeeper.

Becky: Right. The fact that in their head is just a treasure trove of data that really speak to the pros and cons of so many of our choices. Then you get to find out which ones they're picking.

Jeff: [laughs] Yes, that's right. In preparation for today's episode, I'm just going back and researching where his name is found and what papers he authored, or co-authored, or cited. It's just like, it's unbelievable. Then sit back, "Okay, so how do you do your VR?" It's just like, he's like us, and he just enjoys the bees. It's not academic to him.

Becky: He told us. Obviously, he's having success, and that was just fun.

Jeff: Dr. Jeff Pettis has really done a lot for beekeepers around the world. Continues to do so, especially with his projects in Africa. Quite impressive. I look forward to hearing about his projects in a year.

Becky: Agreed.

Jeff: That about wraps it up for this episode of Beekeeping Today. Before we go, be sure to follow us and leave us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you stream the show. Even better, write a quick review to help other beekeepers discover what you enjoy. You can get there directly from our website by clicking on the reviews tab on the top of any page. We want to thank Betterbee, our presenting sponsor, for their ongoing support of the podcast. We also appreciate our longtime sponsors, Global Patties, Strong Microbials, and Northern Bee Books, for their support in bringing you each week's episode.

Most importantly, thank you for listening and spending time with us. If you have any questions or feedback, just head over to our website and drop us a note. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks again, everybody.

[music]

[00:43:29] [END OF AUDIO]