"Bitter Honey" Author Jennie Durant (388)

WEBVTT

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Hello podcast audience.

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This is Lee Maby from the great state of Idaho, city of Idaho Falls where it's cold.

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I've been keeping bees for about twelve years.

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I usually have about twenty production colonies and about that many nucs.

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There's been many times I should have quit this hobby, but for some reason I keep hanging in there.

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Welcome to the Beekeeping Today podcast

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Welcome to Beekeeping Today podcast presented by Betterbee, your source for beekeeping news, information, and entertainment.

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I'm Jeff Ott.

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And I'm Becky Masterman.

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Today's episode is brought to you by the Bee Nutrition superheroes at Global Patties.

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Thank you, Lee, from Idaho, for that wonderful opening.

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Now colour in Idaho.

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Who's got more work to do, Jeff?

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Why are you looking at me when you say that?

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'Cause my my orange marker doesn't reach into your computer, so All right.

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Hey Lee, thanks for giving me more work.

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I have to find my box of Crayola crayons.

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And uh we are excited.

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I know.

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Yeah, it's really good.

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It's really good.

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June.

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It is June.

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Definitely June.

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It is a busy time of year for beekeepers everywhere, I think, except maybe down under.

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They're putting their bees to

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bed, but uh in the northern hemisphere, it's a busy time.

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Yeah, it is.

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It is the time where you run out of space and

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The bees decide to move if you haven't given them adequate space and it's a fun time of year.

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Oh oh and the mites have a lot of brood to reproduce in.

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So

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You know, it's a it's a time of plenty.

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Time of too much.

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Did you get through swarming season unscathed?

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It's still stormy season here, so so it's June, so you know, we have to we have to be on our toes.

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We've got a a pretty strong nectar flow in June, so

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Any excuse for them to m to swarm and and they'll take it, right?

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You look at them cross-eyed and they go take off.

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Well this is this is a good time of year.

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We have a listener question for our high by q

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Hive tool promotion that we have going.

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And we've had this going since what October of 25?

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And we still have quite a few tools to hand out.

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Thank you for a hive IQ for that.

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So if you have a question, listeners, you can send it in or better yet, click on that microphone icon in the lower right-hand corner of our website and leave us an audio question.

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Today's question comes from Kim Marie Wood, and I think it's a timely question.

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She wrote it in the spring, but I think it's really good for this time of year as well.

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Yeah, it's just good beekeeping skills I think to have.

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Kim asked how to equalize colonies at various stages in the apiary.

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So you have a strong colony, you have a weak colony, you got one in between

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How do you go about equalizing them?

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Is there a need to?

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I love that question because it's it's a little bit of an advanced beekeeping skill.

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And I will add that she mentioned

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She was looking for other ways in addition to moving capped brood or or brood from one colony to another.

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Obviously if it's if it's emerging, then you're going to start increasing that population right away.

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If you're just moving brood over

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that's gonna take a little while until you add to the adult population.

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But I will just add, even though I know Kim knows this, that if you are gonna move brood from

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a stronger colony to a weaker colony, make sure that there are enough bees that they can cover the frame and take care of that brood and it's not going to get chilled or it's going to not going to be well fed.

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But one of my favorite tricks that I learned, I don't know if you've ever done this as far as increasing a population, is to switch colonies.

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So

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If you have two colonies right next to each other or well across the way, you put one in one location, the stronger one goes to where the weaker one was, and and vice versa.

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And so that weaker colony is going to get all of the foragers from the stronger colony.

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And hopefully you don't have too many issues with fighting, but it can be a way to just really change the colony dynamics.

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Do you ever do that?

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I've done it a couple times and it's always hesitantly I do that, but yes, I've done that.

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And and I've done it to to boost a weak colony.

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I've also done it to try to convince a colony to not swarm.

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It it is a way to equalize, but it but it is it's a little bit it's an interesting dynamic.

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But but the best way that I equalize colonies is that I

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make sure that when I'm dividing, if I can, I try to move those divides to a different AP area a few miles away so that I don't lose the population.

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I don't the foragers don't leave and then go back.

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And so I try to keep my population, my divides equal and keep the population where I want it without having to lose that population and then maybe have to boost them later on.

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So

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That's me rambling about it.

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What about you, Jeff?

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Did I take all the ideas?

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No, you took all the ideas, but they're all good ideas.

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I have used the uh put the weaker colony in the stronger colony place.

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I just advise not to do that when you know, take off all the honey soupers or take off you know, do it in pieces.

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Besides, yeah, doing the divide type midseason divide and which is basically what Kim was talking about doing or in terms of moving the brood, cat brood.

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I did have a question for you though on the cat brood.

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If it's still warm at night and you just move cat brood or emerging cat brood, is there s as much concern then as if you were moving eggs and larva in terms of temperature nighttime temperatures?

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So considering the brood nest needs to be in the nineties, I mean at night, even if it's ninety during the day, it's dropping to the seventies, right?

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So

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You might not have to worry about developmental issues.

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You d might not have to worry about nutrition, but you are still changing the conditions.

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There's nothing sadder than when you've moved a frame of emerging brood over and you see a little tongue sticking out and they didn't make it out.

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So that's that's important.

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The Q sign in honey bees is never good.

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I thought of another idea is that in order to keep your colonies kind of the same size, if you have a really, really strong colony, instead of dividing it into two, you might want to divide it into three, so that that might be sufficient to

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do the divide and then kind of keep you from having colonies that are are really just booming compared to smaller colonies.

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Very good.

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Well, Kim, we hope we answered your question and we will be placing your Hive IQ Hive tool, shiny, silver.

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with our logo on it in the mail real soon.

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Coming up we have Dr.

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Jennie Durant.

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She has written a new book.

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It's uh released just last month.

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It's called Bitter Honey, Big Ag's Threat to the Bees in the Fight to Save Them.

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It is a book that you will wanna read, stand by, she is in the green room.

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You said that so well.

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Hey everybody, welcome back.

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Sitting around the great big virtual beekeeping today podcast table.

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We have in Berkeley, California, Dr.

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Jennie Durant.

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author of Bitter Honey.

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Jennie, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much.

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It's great to great to be here with you.

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We're very

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excited that you one that you talked to a bunch of beekeepers and learned all about the beekeeping industry, but then you're here to share it with us.

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Thank you.

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I'm honored to be here.

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Well before we get far into the book or get into the book, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

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I got my PhD at Berkeley.

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I got into bees, was interested in bees, starting actually with colony collapse disorder.

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I was living in the Philippines at the time.

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And I was studying rice terraces of all things like rice communities.

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And anyway, I was really homesick and I read The Secret Life of Bees by Sue Monk Kidd.

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And I was like, I want to learn about bees.

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That's gonna help me feel better.

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It's so random.

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And so I I know.

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So I went down and I worked with this, I met this woman who had this like little resort in the Philippines

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And she had like hexagon hexagonally shaped how like rooms that you could stay in and all the food had honey in it in some way.

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And she was training beekeepers across the island, these farmers, you know, adding beekeeping into their operations so they can, you know, have an extra source of income.

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I was really inspired by the work she was doing.

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So I started learning about bees then and was kind of working on a pamphlet for her and it just got longer and longer and I was like, we're really into bees and and at the time I was uh colony collapse disorder was you know hitting the news.

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This was in 2007

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And so I just started getting really into it and eventually got my PhD to better understand what some of the drivers were behind B declines and

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I learned about the almond industry and started interviewing beekeepers to find out, commercial beekeepers, I should say, to find out how they were changing their

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management practices to pollinate for the almond industry.

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And so then I did my PhD and then did hostdoc where I I studied almond growers and

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Then went to work at USDA, and then I started working on this book.

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And so that's kind of where I've been at for the last uh 15 years or so.

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And yeah, a little bit about me there.

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You're fully immersed in the honey bee industry and the world of honey bees.

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Yeah, it's been an it's been amazing.

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I've made some really good friends over the years too and it's just been a really eye opening and and I've I just have so much respect for beekeepers, both small and

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enlarge.

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Do you have any bees of your own?

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Any colonies in a backyard?

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I did, and then I I am like mildly allergic to bees and so when I was pregnant I stopped beekeeping for a while.

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And then we've been moving a lot and you're living in the city in DC and we're renting right now.

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So my hope is to get back to beekeeping.

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But for now I just get stung by other people's bees.

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Well, that is definitely a solid background in bees.

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So

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Tell us a little bit about your book, Bitter Honey, and uh the subtitle is Big Ag's Threat to the Bees and the Fight to Save Them

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That sounds really exciting.

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Yeah, thank you.

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The book is about well kind of what the title says, right?

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It looks at how our large-scale industrial ag agricultural system

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you know, the threats that it poses to bees.

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It's the same system that our beekeepers are supporting is also a threat, you know, to to them as well.

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And so I I started off, as I mentioned, with this interest in the almond industry and how beekeepers were transforming their their management practice.

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practices to pollinate for almonds and how that requires an intensification of their of their management practices.

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So like

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you know, adding feeding them more supplements, pushing their bees uh, you know, harder, trucking them cross-country, having to really manage for mites intensively.

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Um, because you know, when when your bees are so valuable and you need a lot of bees to pollinate almonds in February, which requires o um over ninety percent of all commercial bee colonies, you know, in California

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I was really curious about this interplay between commercial beekeeping and and agriculture.

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And what I found was just that, I mean, a lot of ways that it's become so hard to be a beekeeper in the United States at the at a commercial scale.

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There's really cheap honey on the market that drives the cost down.

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But also in terms of big agriculture, you know, we have the spread of monoculture crops and that is getting rid of important forage that bees have

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relied on um and beekeepers have relied on for decades.

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And then there's also just this intensified the way that agriculture has expanded so intensely, you know, requires so many beekeepers and there's

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Just this large push to really manage your operation in an intense way, and that also can make bees a little more vulnerable as well

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Then there's also the use of pesticides, right?

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There's the way that climate change is kind of exacerbating all these different drivers.

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So that's like the first two-thirds of the book.

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And then the last third of the book really looks at inspiring solutions

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things that kinda got me excited that were particularly focused around things that, you know, the everyday reader could perhaps do to help bees.

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There are a lot of solutions that I don't talk about that are really coming from within the beekeeping industry, but I wanted to focus on especially like things that we can do to get more flowers on the ground for bees, just like to get more food out there.

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So I look at

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you know, large-scale proje uh forage projects, on farm, you know, forage planting, and then what how people have transformed their backyards to help these two.

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Jennie, you have been in the industry for quite a while now, and you've been doing a lot of research, a lot of information gathering.

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We've have a situation that

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seems to just keep getting worse.

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I remember Hannah Nord Nordhaus' book, Beekeepers Lament, really let not just be keepers but the world know what was going on with the beekeeping industry a number of years ago.

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But now you're coming out with a new book and you've got the benefit of hindsight from these beekeeping operations that we're struggling and and to now and and where they're at.

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This is a long question.

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Wait for it

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Why did you decide now that this was the right time to release a book and to write about where we're at in this point of time?

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That's a great question.

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I I actually have to start off by saying Hannah Nordhaus' book, um, The Beekeepers Lament, was a huge inspiration for me.

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And I remember, you know, John Miller is one of the beekeepers featured in that book.

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And I when I first met him at a conference, I felt like I was meeting a celebrity, you know, like um

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It's just like, oh yeah, John Miller, you know.

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Um and he's actually in a few of the chapters of the book too.

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And and so that was it was really amazing how she made that world come alive and and inspired me to, you know, my own journey

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And as far as why now, you know, I think some of it is I have been just watching beekeepers really struggle over the past really since I started interviewing them uh in back in twenty twelve, but

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especially over the last few years.

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You know, last year in particular there was a was some of the worst losses beekeepers have faced in history.

00:17:04.420 --> 00:17:10.260
They were opening their colonies right before almond bloom, which is a really important source of income for beekeepers

00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.279
and finding sixty to eighty percent of their colonies had disappeared.

00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:16.199
You know, it was it was devastating.

00:17:16.199 --> 00:17:23.319
And also kinda in the context of B science really being kind of attacked, you know, by this administration too.

00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:25.079
Like we're really seeing the gutting of

00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:38.360
bee labs being closed and you know bee federal bee researchers are struggling, you know, to make keep their jobs and and so there's this whole context of bees struggling and there's just not being enough support to help them

00:17:38.300 --> 00:17:52.860
And so I felt like I really wanted people to have this broader sense of our food system and the role it plays in in making creating vulnerability in bees, I would say both in in managed bees and in native bees as well.

00:17:52.560 --> 00:17:59.520
But I also wanted to come in with that hopeful message because there are so many drivers of of B losses.

00:17:59.520 --> 00:18:01.920
There are also so many solutions.

00:18:01.760 --> 00:18:10.559
And so I spend the last third of the book really looking at some of the, you know, hopeful efforts out there to try and help bees and other pollinators.

00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:18.440
And I just think let's focus on, you know, as much of the solutions that we can to just try and really support our bees and beekeepers because

00:18:18.560 --> 00:18:29.200
It really is an important moment and our food system relies on them and declines, pollinator declines are real and I do think it's really time to to take action.

00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:29.520
So

00:18:29.560 --> 00:18:44.120
I hope some of the information in the book and the stories that are really threaded throughout from these beekeepers and farmers and other practitioners will, you know, will help connect people to what's going on and inspire them to maybe do something to make a difference.

00:18:43.840 --> 00:18:55.760
I love the fact that you are firmly set in academia, but your writing is so easy to read and it's it you are a storyteller and so you're able to weave that

00:18:56.340 --> 00:19:04.179
science and data in with the people's lives and what they're experiencing and and how a lot of the beekeeping industry operates.

00:19:04.179 --> 00:19:04.419
So

00:19:04.860 --> 00:19:17.100
I think that for readers it's going to be it's exciting that the book is being released because I I think you're going to reach not just beekeepers, but you're going to tell the story to a lot of people who care about honey bees

00:19:17.340 --> 00:19:18.940
bees and our food system.

00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:22.140
So it's like the nicest thing you could tell me about.

00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:23.820
Thank you so much.

00:19:24.700 --> 00:19:31.340
And a lot of our listeners actually do listen to or not listen to, but they actually read science papers and and

00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:42.240
So we have people who are who are digging in there, but there's something to having the information really shared in in a in a just an easy, easy to understand format.

00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:43.919
It's just so valuable.

00:19:43.919 --> 00:19:44.240
So

00:19:44.360 --> 00:19:52.760
I remember when I was first going to beekeeping conferences, um, like the American Beekeeping Federation, uh, American Honey Producers Association.

00:19:52.740 --> 00:20:00.420
I would be sitting there and watching these beekeepers watching, you know, bee researchers like from the bee labs presenting their studies

00:20:00.540 --> 00:20:04.140
you know, like most of the day would be presentations on research.

00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:07.020
And I was like, God, these they're so academic.

00:20:07.020 --> 00:20:12.460
You know, these beekeepers are sitting here and they're like asking questions and like how'd you do this study and this and that

00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:14.060
And I was so impressed.

00:20:14.060 --> 00:20:22.540
And so I I've always been really impressed by just that deep uh relationship between researchers and beekeepers that the community has.

00:20:22.419 --> 00:20:30.580
But I also when I was writing it, oh my god, just writing my first couple of chapters, I it took me forever because I really had to

00:20:30.940 --> 00:20:40.139
work on getting out of that academic mindset and and sort of way of communicating and just simplify it and simplify it and and really try and think like what is the

00:20:40.260 --> 00:20:42.500
average reader, you know, what are they gonna find interesting?

00:20:42.500 --> 00:20:51.059
How can I make this as mites, you know, varroa mites as interesting as possible, you know, like so so people care and and get involved in it because it is at its heart.

00:20:51.059 --> 00:20:54.900
I mean beekeeping is fascinating and bees are so interesting and beekeepers are

00:20:54.940 --> 00:20:59.899
doing such a unique and you know interesting and important job for for our food.

00:20:59.899 --> 00:21:02.620
And I I just like had to try and make it accessible.

00:21:02.620 --> 00:21:05.820
But hearing that you feel that way is like such an honor.

00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:07.060
That's amazing.

00:21:07.060 --> 00:21:08.020
A hundred percent.

00:21:08.020 --> 00:21:08.740
It's exciting.

00:21:08.740 --> 00:21:17.460
It's exciting because I think this is going to improve beekeepers' lives in in a number of different ways because that information's being shared so easily.

00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:17.780
So

00:21:17.860 --> 00:21:18.740
Thank you.

00:21:18.740 --> 00:21:24.260
Okay, let's take this opportunity to take a quick break and we'll be right back and talk more with Dr.

00:21:24.260 --> 00:21:25.779
Jennie Durant.

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00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:01.380
Welcome back everybody.

00:23:01.380 --> 00:23:06.260
Jennie, the beekeeping industry is is just a little bit divided.

00:23:06.220 --> 00:23:15.260
We also have have threats from the outside that are are really impacting some of the ways that people feel about beekeepers and honey bees.

00:23:15.260 --> 00:23:17.180
So within the industry

00:23:17.260 --> 00:23:23.340
We have small-scale beekeepers or hobby beekeepers who might not agree with the commercial beekeeping methods.

00:23:23.340 --> 00:23:31.740
We've have commercial beekeepers who might not respect the the huge impact our hobbyists and sideliners have on our industry.

00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:41.080
And then we also have native bee enthusiasts and some researchers who are really not excited about honey bees because of competition.

00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:47.960
And and I've always been the opinion that, you know, there wouldn't be a competition issue if we didn't have such a habitat crisis.

00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:53.080
But but I'm I'm sure you have a lot to say on those conflicts.

00:23:53.320 --> 00:23:55.400
I'll just let you give some thoughts.

00:23:55.260 --> 00:24:01.980
Yeah, it's it's such a great point and it's been something I've observed, you know, for years.

00:24:01.980 --> 00:24:04.620
I I was a beekeeper for a while.

00:24:04.760 --> 00:24:13.559
And I remember one of the big conflicts that we would see between commercial and maybe backyard beekeepers was like, how do you treat mites?

00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:14.440
You know?

00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:15.080
Do you

00:24:15.860 --> 00:24:17.059
How often do you treat them?

00:24:17.059 --> 00:24:18.740
What chemicals do you use?

00:24:18.740 --> 00:24:26.419
If you're not treating, are you impacting a beekeeper who's making their livelihood, you know, off of their bees by

00:24:26.540 --> 00:24:32.460
Because mites transfer from, you know, one bee colony to the next and bees can travel, you know, within different colonies.

00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:37.420
Are you kind of a mite bomb, you know, for another bee heaper in your area?

00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:44.120
And what are what responsibility do we have in terms of how we're kind of collectively treating bees?

00:24:44.120 --> 00:24:45.960
So that was one big source of tension.

00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.600
So I'll just I'll sort of start off with that.

00:24:48.620 --> 00:24:54.940
that tension between the industry and with you know within the industry and within the c beekeeping world.

00:24:54.940 --> 00:25:00.380
So I think what gives me hope for, you know, the future of beekeeping in in

00:25:01.019 --> 00:25:08.380
This country is that there are these forums where beheapers can come together and talk about you know how

00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.360
how we do kind of raise bees collectively.

00:25:11.360 --> 00:25:18.880
And the truth is, given the ways that bees fly, you know, it is their they are kind of like a a commons in a way.

00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:21.520
They are the what you're doing in your own backyard

00:25:21.340 --> 00:25:24.940
can affect a beekeeper in an you know in someone in their yard, right?

00:25:24.940 --> 00:25:26.460
In their apiary.

00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:34.220
And so I I do think that we need to have conversations, you know, but at the end of the day, you know, we we are they are sort of

00:25:34.060 --> 00:25:35.740
We are raising our own bees.

00:25:35.740 --> 00:25:41.740
And so there is going to always be this tension, I think, between maybe smaller, more

00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:50.880
intimate ways of beekeeping and larger, more, you know, profit focused or even I wish to say livelihood focused forms of beekeeping as well.

00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:51.200
And

00:25:51.440 --> 00:26:02.799
I don't necessarily have any solutions for that except for just really emphasizing the importance of those those annual and local regional conferences where

00:26:03.100 --> 00:26:16.460
large and small beekeepers can come together and just keep talking to each other and kind of wrestling with these questions and continue to understand the ins uh the importance of science, you know, driven beekeeping and and trying to

00:26:16.540 --> 00:26:29.420
have some of that research guide our our our beekeeping practices while also creating space for experimenting because I think a lot of smaller backyard beekeepers are exploring new forms of beekeeping that can inform

00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:37.320
large-scale beekeeping as well, like using say essential oils or, you know, less drastic or chemical forms of mite treatments.

00:26:37.320 --> 00:26:39.720
So so that's one point there.

00:26:39.660 --> 00:26:43.500
And I asked your bigger question about the sort of forage debate.

00:26:43.500 --> 00:26:50.860
I talk about this in one of my chapters, and it was actually kind of depressing for me sometimes to see the conflict

00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:54.380
between like the native bee community and the beekeeping communities.

00:26:54.380 --> 00:26:55.179
I really get it.

00:26:55.179 --> 00:27:02.460
You know, I think as you talk about this shrinking forage that's on our planet really, not just the United States.

00:27:02.340 --> 00:27:14.820
There's just less and less food for for bees these days with urbanization and even, you know, uh extreme weather events like droughts, you know, wiping out floral availability or really limiting it

00:27:14.820 --> 00:27:15.700
wildfires.

00:27:15.700 --> 00:27:19.540
I'm in California, so that's you know top of mind over here.

00:27:19.540 --> 00:27:24.100
And so as we have less storage, who gets access to it, right?

00:27:24.100 --> 00:27:27.940
And I think that is a really big question.

00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:36.200
And in terms of the path forward there, I mean I think it's really important to honor the fact that

00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:41.559
commercial commercially managed bees do pollinate a massive portion of our food system.

00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:47.880
And at the same time they're also really vulnerable and we need we need to do more to support our native bee populations.

00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:51.159
So we do have to have a big tent approach.

00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:54.360
You know, we do need to be honoring the needs of both.

00:27:54.360 --> 00:28:01.640
I I'd say we we there's from what I've seen less less research on on native bees and compared to compared to honey bees.

00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:02.120
And so

00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:07.920
It would be great to be better monitoring our native bee populations and better identifying them.

00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:12.560
And then trying to again have those forums where we can talk about

00:28:12.660 --> 00:28:20.340
Are there spaces that maybe should be protected for native bees that be heapers don't maybe access or or get permits to access

00:28:20.620 --> 00:28:22.220
Do we not want to have that approach?

00:28:22.220 --> 00:28:28.380
I just think those forums and that conversation needs to continue so we can understand how to protect forage.

00:28:28.380 --> 00:28:29.980
And then we just need to support

00:28:30.220 --> 00:28:37.980
as many conservation and habitat programs as we can to be constantly trying to get, you know, more forage on the ground.

00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:38.300
So

00:28:38.300 --> 00:28:51.260
That's why uh last thing I'll say on that, uh a lot of my solution m chapters, uh the three solution chapters are really about getting as many flowers as we can, you know, on the ground so we can just have as much food as possible for bees because I

00:28:51.260 --> 00:28:54.620
think that will alleviate a lot of this stress, you know, as well.

00:28:55.020 --> 00:28:57.260
You know, rising tide raises all ships.

00:28:57.260 --> 00:29:02.460
I mean if we have the appropriate habitat for the native bees, there's gonna be enough for the honey bees.

00:29:02.460 --> 00:29:05.340
And and in those areas where there there are

00:29:05.919 --> 00:29:13.919
rarities and and small numbers of native bees, then I think everyone's on board to say, now okay, we don't need to put necessarily bees there or

00:29:14.320 --> 00:29:21.680
I think there was an argument at some point where the what is it the conservation reserve program made available more space for farmers to

00:29:21.940 --> 00:29:28.659
plant or not plant in certain areas or leave hedgerows, and those are no longer s prominent as they used to be.

00:29:28.659 --> 00:29:31.940
It's a challenge, a serious challenge for everybody.

00:29:31.940 --> 00:29:34.659
I would just like to argue with you, Jeff.

00:29:34.340 --> 00:29:41.700
If the f land doesn't support bees, then instead of keeping honey bees out, we need to get more forage on the ground.

00:29:41.700 --> 00:29:42.340
That's our solution.

00:29:43.539 --> 00:29:48.740
I know you agree essentially, but but it is it is interesting how when the

00:29:49.019 --> 00:29:57.820
problem is framed that it's honey bees competing with native bees, which those data are really, really difficult to interpret at this point.

00:29:57.820 --> 00:30:03.179
And I think if if that's how the problem is framed, then I think that the solution is

00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:06.440
Great, our honey bees are telling you that there's not enough feed.

00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:12.520
So that means that in this place, if a honey bee colony can't thrive, it means that there's not enough forage.

00:30:12.360 --> 00:30:13.080
in the area.

00:30:13.080 --> 00:30:15.000
And there are states out there.

00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:22.840
Kansas, I love you, but Kansas the honey production has just tanked over the last thirty years because the

00:30:23.540 --> 00:30:26.260
the land use practices have changed so much.

00:30:26.260 --> 00:30:28.180
And the bees are telling us things.

00:30:28.180 --> 00:30:32.020
They're telling us that, you know, w we no longer can produce sixty pounds of honey.

00:30:32.020 --> 00:30:35.140
Now we're producing under thirty our average yield.

00:30:35.140 --> 00:30:35.460
So

00:30:35.560 --> 00:30:45.160
That's a great point and I just wanna jump off of that a little bit because, you know, bees, honey bees really are a canary in the coal mine, you know, for bees writ large.

00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:58.840
They're obviously sensitive to different pesticides or different, you know, pathogens or pests uh in different ways, but they do give us a glimpse of well what might be happening for needed bees on the ground since they're much harder to study and understand and some of them are

00:30:58.760 --> 00:31:09.559
you know, solitary and not even social and so like honey bees are and bumblebees and so it it they really do provide us an opportunity to better understand those dynamics

00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:11.800
And I think that's, you know, just a great point.

00:31:11.800 --> 00:31:15.480
Like if we're seeing honey bees struggle here is then our native bees must be struggling too.

00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:22.600
And what all this is telling us is that we just don't have enough forage and that we're prioritizing we're not prioritizing bees enough

00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:34.960
on our in terms of how we think about, you know, farming and land management, I think we could afford to be a lot more creative about getting more pollinator forage on the land, you know, on various landscapes

00:31:34.580 --> 00:31:38.180
than we currently are and that that's the that's the direction I'd really like to see us go in.

00:31:38.420 --> 00:31:43.860
And and I'm hoping that everyone reads your book and everything is going to maybe help

00:31:44.040 --> 00:31:53.240
focus people's arguments because I think people hear one argument about, you know, native bees and honey bees in competition, and that's maybe not the argument they need to hear.

00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:54.200
They they need to see

00:31:54.440 --> 00:31:55.399
the big picture.

00:31:55.399 --> 00:31:58.039
So I'm really excited for you to be on the Today Show.

00:31:58.039 --> 00:32:00.120
Is that on the on the list of things that's gonna happen?

00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:03.559
Not yet, but if you know somebody, I would love that

00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:13.360
It's so exc I feel like you're you're a a spokesperson for the industry right now, Jennie, so no pressure, but by you releasing this book, it really

00:32:14.019 --> 00:32:24.179
it gives somebody some help as far as telling the story and and having people understand in the big picture what's going on in the industry and some solutions too.

00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:30.440
First of all, I appreciate that so much and I over the years have really come to be so invested in the plight of beekeepers.

00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:38.760
And I will say, you know, I do talk about commercial beekeepers role in creating vulnerability in their own bees, which they are very open about.

00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:41.600
And they s and they struggle with that role a lot.

00:32:41.600 --> 00:32:50.240
They describe it as a Faustian bargain and um it's ki sometimes a choice between managing more intensely or going under, you know, in your operation.

00:32:50.260 --> 00:32:59.220
But it so I think what was important for me is just to give as honest and clear of a perspective of like, this is what beekeepers are struggling with.

00:32:59.100 --> 00:33:09.740
But instead of blaming beekeepers, we need to look beyond at the system that they're operating within, which which so many farmers are struggling in our our current industrial system.

00:33:09.540 --> 00:33:13.220
and have compassion and then start thinking about how do we help, you know?

00:33:13.220 --> 00:33:18.420
And so I think that, yeah, I just wanted to add a bit to what you were saying because I think that's such an important point.

00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:26.480
There is a lot of honesty in the book and it's not a pretty picture in many ways as far as what is it, beekeepers as petty criminals?

00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:28.880
Is that part of the Yes

00:33:29.140 --> 00:33:36.100
But they're forced into this terrible position, you know, where they like don't have good miticides and it's especially at large scale, it's really hard.

00:33:36.100 --> 00:33:39.300
But yes, there that is a chapter or part of a chapter.

00:33:38.940 --> 00:33:48.700
But that's honesty and it's really important because I I don't think anybody's trying to clean up the situation, but but really just explain this is this is where we're at.

00:33:48.300 --> 00:33:50.140
And this is what you're forced to do, right?

00:33:50.460 --> 00:34:00.780
When you have so many fewer options and you're being expected to pollinate this huge farm system with with less resources than other larger industries.

00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:04.919
I think the timing for the book is also really good because in what month is this?

00:34:04.919 --> 00:34:05.480
June?

00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:11.399
So back in May, April, there was the Freakonomics episode podcast.

00:34:11.240 --> 00:34:15.639
Where they talked about instead of free economics, they talked about the be economics.

00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:17.879
And they talked about many of the same issues.

00:34:17.879 --> 00:34:19.080
And of course they focused

00:34:19.220 --> 00:34:25.619
more in their episode on some of the dumping and adulteration of honey, but they're also they also touched on the habitat.

00:34:25.619 --> 00:34:28.899
And I think between what you bring to light in your book

00:34:29.240 --> 00:34:39.000
bitter honey and big ag and also what they're talking about in the economics of the honey industry, the timing is coming for the honey industry to be able to

00:34:39.520 --> 00:34:50.320
to be able to have the right people hear the problems that we're facing and your book is gonna be, you know, something people can be carrying as they're talking about what's happening.

00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:51.599
I think it's very good.

00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:53.119
Timing's perfect

00:34:52.859 --> 00:35:04.060
And onto that honey point, you know, um my husband's Indian and I spent some time in India over winter and I was able to interview beekeepers um while I was there

00:35:04.160 --> 00:35:05.920
and uh Indian beekeepers.

00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:07.520
And it was really fascinating.

00:35:07.520 --> 00:35:18.960
This was probably the next project for me, but because they were talking about, you know, there's a lot of awareness around honey adulteration and how that can really kind of flood the market in the US with cheap honey.

00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:22.440
and drive down costs and really just make the honey market a tricky place for beekeepers.

00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:26.040
And I I don't talk about this as much as the book because I in the books I wanted to

00:35:26.240 --> 00:35:27.840
have more time to research it.

00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:34.560
But, you know, there is in India this commonly known that, you know, like a large portion of the honey is adulterated.

00:35:34.560 --> 00:35:36.880
I mean, I was getting hearing quotes of like

00:35:37.240 --> 00:35:42.440
a fifth of it is honey and the rest is, you know, some kind of syrup, you know, which is a really high number.

00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:49.560
And again, I'm not trying to place blame on anyone here, but this is a a dire reality for beekeepers who

00:35:49.660 --> 00:36:00.620
you know, if you're facing adulterated honey with some super cheap sweetener added in versus one hundred percent real honey, that's a that's a hard market to try and sustain yourself in as an honest beekeeper.

00:36:00.620 --> 00:36:02.300
And so it again it's just these

00:36:02.420 --> 00:36:06.580
larger systems that beekeepers are in and the pressures they're facing.

00:36:06.580 --> 00:36:12.020
It's it's it's so important to know the story and understand what's going on so we can help.

00:36:12.040 --> 00:36:15.720
Two years ago we did a series on the habitat crisis.

00:36:15.720 --> 00:36:19.800
And we have a four-part series out on our website that we talked to different beekeepers.

00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:20.600
We talked to

00:36:20.859 --> 00:36:27.260
Other people in the industry, we talked to Zach Browning from uh the Bee and Butterfly Fund and talk about what is the problem.

00:36:27.260 --> 00:36:33.339
We helped define the problem and then helped to highlight some solutions that were possible that

00:36:33.540 --> 00:36:40.980
Yeah, beekeepers and beekeepers neighbors and people around the world could do to help alleviate some of this habitat problems that we're facing

00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:44.240
Yes, you know, Z I feature Zach Browning in the book actually quite a bit.

00:36:44.240 --> 00:36:48.560
He's probably one of the beekeepers that I kind of bring weave historian as well.

00:36:48.560 --> 00:36:48.880
And

00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:56.400
You know, in some ways the work that they're doing with the bee and butterfly habitat fund was probably the inspiration for my like solutions section

00:36:56.460 --> 00:37:04.140
It was so cool to hear how they, you know, had this research driven approach to coming up with the best seed mixes

00:37:03.900 --> 00:37:12.940
So right, you think about a a forage plot of land and if you just put kind of any flowers on there, sometimes they're they can turn to grass really quickly and not have as much food.

00:37:12.940 --> 00:37:14.619
And so they were trying to figure out

00:37:14.640 --> 00:37:20.880
How can we have the most dense, you know, nutrient-rich stands of flowers in these seeds mixes?

00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:23.200
And just kind of hearing about his and his

00:37:23.460 --> 00:37:35.460
partner beat uh Berthelsen in in founding the Bean Butterfly Habitat Fund, their process with that, and then how they've been working uh using controlled burns to also help with uh manage it.

00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:48.720
They're just doing a lot of really innovative work in terms of, you know, if anyone's got like a few acres of land that they can dedicate to pollinator habitat, programs like Bean Butterfly Habitat Fund or Project Apus N, the Seeds for Bees program here in California

00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:52.840
They're just such great resources for anyone looking to to, you know, help bees.

00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:54.440
So I always like to talk about that.

00:37:54.520 --> 00:37:55.800
I'm glad you brought it up.

00:37:55.880 --> 00:38:00.600
It's a different industry because we used to just put the bees down.

00:38:00.520 --> 00:38:05.079
and they took care of their food and we didn't have to worry about supplements.

00:38:05.079 --> 00:38:07.720
We didn't have to worry about, you know, what

00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:14.600
And so it's a unique industry where we even have the luxury to not have to worry about it.

00:38:14.600 --> 00:38:15.640
But at this point,

00:38:15.540 --> 00:38:24.580
point we need to and so beekeepers aren't necessarily used to putting the bees down and then putting in the seeds so that they get fed and so it's a good time to

00:38:25.020 --> 00:38:26.940
highlight that yeah it's hard.

00:38:26.940 --> 00:38:28.859
I have a lot of people who are like, I want to help the bees.

00:38:28.859 --> 00:38:30.300
I'm gonna become a beekeeper.

00:38:30.300 --> 00:38:35.980
And I I don't mean any disrespect 'cause I think you know it's that's that's great, but I'm always like, whoa, you know, like

00:38:36.059 --> 00:38:44.539
I really encourage planting flowers instead and providing food for bees and really learning about beekeeping before you get started because I was beekeeping my bees

00:38:44.640 --> 00:38:53.359
died almost every year from mites because I was you know learning how to manage them and it's a lot of work and requires a lot of vigilance and so I I really again just

00:38:53.460 --> 00:39:05.220
have a lot of respect for beekeepers, but it's I really do think one of the best solutions for anyone who can help is just to get more food out there, you know, in the form of some bee friendly plants in your yard or in your neighborhood garden or or any way you can.

00:39:05.220 --> 00:39:07.140
I've seen apartment buildings with

00:39:07.059 --> 00:39:12.740
bee flowers in pots and butterflies on them or bees on them and like every little bit of food cats.

00:39:12.980 --> 00:39:14.260
Or your neighbor's garden.

00:39:14.260 --> 00:39:15.940
Just toss it just toss some seeds.

00:39:16.180 --> 00:39:18.740
Toss some seeds on the side.

00:39:18.740 --> 00:39:19.779
Make sure you have a good

00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:23.200
a good neighbor for that one before you take that apart.

00:39:23.200 --> 00:39:27.760
Jennie, you talk to a lot of beekeepers and some of 'em might be characters.

00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:31.520
Do you have a a a favorite story that you could share?

00:39:31.520 --> 00:39:32.160
You know

00:39:32.260 --> 00:39:39.140
Yes, so one of my favorite stories, I had to keep the beekeeper's identity anonymous, but so his name is Dave in the book.

00:39:39.140 --> 00:39:45.620
And he was just telling me, you know, this was in the context, it's in the second chapter and called Buzzkill.

00:39:45.160 --> 00:39:51.640
And he was talking about just how the links that beekeepers go to to get mitocides to treat their bees.

00:39:51.640 --> 00:39:52.440
And so

00:39:52.660 --> 00:40:02.660
He was talking about, you know, there's amatraz and there's a product called Tactic that beekeepers are not supposed to use and I will neither confirm nor deny whether they still use that.

00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:13.400
But at one point, Dave was trying to get this tactic product and he jokingly calls it SmackTic and he was having to like get it from smuggled in from Mexico.

00:40:13.160 --> 00:40:24.040
And he would describe how this the smuggler would bring in um like uh cheese and the palate would be cheese and then in the middle there would be these containers of tactic.

00:40:25.040 --> 00:40:32.800
And at some point, you know, he figured and they'd like meet in the back lot of like a Home Depot and you know and like get this, get this tactic.

00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:36.640
But it was like the only thing that was working, you know, was was this my decide.

00:40:36.640 --> 00:40:37.280
And so

00:40:37.359 --> 00:40:43.280
Anyway, eventually he finds out that they're also adulterating his tactic and he had to find a better dealer.

00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:45.280
And then I think ultimately he ended up

00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:51.560
moving away from the use of tactic and towards more natural uh substances, but uh you know or, you know, pest control.

00:40:51.560 --> 00:40:57.880
But but at the time I just love the story about like the cheese smuggler bringing in the smack deck from Mexico, you know.

00:40:57.880 --> 00:40:59.240
So just like

00:40:59.359 --> 00:41:00.560
The links you go to.

00:41:00.560 --> 00:41:04.160
Who would have guessed that the Mexican cartel is bringing in tactic?

00:41:04.160 --> 00:41:04.800
I know.

00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:06.640
Like bee bee treatment.

00:41:06.640 --> 00:41:13.200
Like I it was like I had no idea there was like a black market for bee products, you know, like that was so fascinating

00:41:13.160 --> 00:41:22.600
And for newer beekeepers who are listening to this, when you look up what their the options are, we have so many right now compared to what we used to have.

00:41:22.600 --> 00:41:24.440
And and so we are in a

00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:31.760
We're feeling the bounty right now, but years and years ago we really, really had so few products on the market.

00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:36.960
So Yeah, and this was like in the, you know, probably late nineties and there was like tracheal mite.

00:41:36.359 --> 00:41:42.680
And Barrowamites and, you know, and you're just like at the end of your rope, you're afraid you're gonna lose your operation.

00:41:42.680 --> 00:41:44.359
And it's terrifying, right?

00:41:44.359 --> 00:41:46.040
And if you don't feel like you have good tools

00:41:46.160 --> 00:41:51.760
to use you kind of go to any lengths to get what you can to make sure you don't lose your operation.

00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:56.480
Well Jennie, it's been great having you on the podcast today.

00:41:56.160 --> 00:41:59.360
I encourage everyone to go out and buy your book and read it.

00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:09.280
It does describe in a very friendly way, as Becky was saying, in a very easy-to-read way, the habitat crisis, the challenges facing beekeepers of all sizes

00:42:09.240 --> 00:42:15.400
Large and small and some solutions to get around the area of solutions to the problems that can work today.

00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:16.920
Thank you for joining us

00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:17.400
Thanks so much.

00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:19.160
It's such a pleasure to chat with you both.

00:42:19.160 --> 00:42:27.800
And I just also appreciate what you're doing with your podcast and, you know, highlighting research and the work um, you know, the Be Heaping World is such a gift.

00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:30.600
So thank you for what you're all doing here as well

00:42:30.580 --> 00:42:31.460
Thanks, Jennie.

00:42:31.460 --> 00:42:33.060
It's been a pleasure.

00:42:33.540 --> 00:42:35.620
I really enjoyed talking with Jennie.

00:42:35.620 --> 00:42:38.900
Her book was fun to read and she was fun to talk to.

00:42:38.980 --> 00:42:42.740
So smart and so knowledgeable and also

00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:47.839
On our side, I mean she's telling the story that needs to be told.

00:42:47.839 --> 00:42:53.599
We need more people to look at the industry and share it.

00:42:54.220 --> 00:42:58.300
And that about wraps it up for this episode of Beekeeping Today.

00:42:58.300 --> 00:43:03.660
Before we go, be sure to follow us and leave us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts.

00:43:03.540 --> 00:43:05.860
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00:43:05.860 --> 00:43:10.900
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00:43:10.900 --> 00:43:17.060
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00:43:17.060 --> 00:43:18.020
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00:43:18.540 --> 00:43:22.220
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00:43:22.220 --> 00:43:31.500
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00:43:31.500 --> 00:43:33.180
And most importantly, thank you for the next one.

00:43:33.620 --> 00:43:35.460
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00:43:35.460 --> 00:43:39.860
If you have any questions or feedback, just head over to our website and drop us a note.

00:43:39.860 --> 00:43:41.220
We'd love to hear from you.

00:43:41.220 --> 00:43:42.900
Thanks again everybody

00:43:46.100 --> 00:43:47.860
Gemin.